RecruitingDaily Podcast
The RecruitingDaily Podcast is a series of conversations and interviews with thought leaders and practitioners. Each week, the topic digs into the biggest challenges faced in HR, recruiting, and the latest technology innovations you should know about.
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RecruitingDaily Podcast
Inside the Personify Acquisition With John Wilson And Ryan Carlfey of WilsonHCG
Get ready for an exhilarating conversation with two powerhouses in the talent acquisition world! We have John Wilson, CEO of WilsonHCG, and Ryan Carlfey, President and CEO of the recently acquired Personify. We're bringing you behind the scenes of their recent merger, diving into their shared philosophies, and unraveling the vision they have for their collective future. You're in for a revelation as you discover why they chose to unite their companies and the mutual gains they anticipate from this venture.
As we shift gears in the latter half of our discussion, we're going to explore the technological aspects of running a services business. Hear straight from John and Ryan how technology has reshaped their business operations and the impact they foresee it having in the future. John places emphasis on the crucial part leaders of acquired companies play in a successful merger, while Ryan speaks passionately about the alignment between their organizations that will steer them towards success. You do not want to miss this fascinating exploration of business strategy, technology, and human resources in the ever-changing landscape of talent acquisition.
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This is William Timkapp and you're listening to the Recruiting Daily Podcast. Today we have John and Ryan Oren from Wilson HCG and Personify. We're actually going to be digging into the inside, the Personify acquisition. John and I have known each other for longer than we probably care to admit publicly, but I really I love when RPOs and staffing firms when they buy technology, when they integrate with technology. John and I have had this discussion several times of the technology that's behind the scenes. We're excited at Wilson HCG. They use so much technology for their clients and for themselves, et cetera. I just can't wait to hear how this played out. John, why don't you do us a favor and introduce yourself? And Ryan, you do that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, William John Wilson, CEO of Wilson HCG. We have a quick background on our company. We operate in a lot of countries all over the globe and we provide large-scale outsourcing to clients wanting to get better from a talent perspective.
Speaker 1:And Ryan.
Speaker 3:Ryan Carfle, formerly the president and CEO of Personify. Now I lead the Life Sciences division here at Wilson. 21 years in the recruitment industry. Started off as a traditional search firm and brought our business into the RPO sector in 2006. So really grateful to be here and great to finally meet you 100%.
Speaker 1:When you came into the RPO a sign of things, did you all, was it white labeled or a multi? Not a multi-tenant, but a one-to-many model where you could work with an RPO that had several hundreds or thousands of clients.
Speaker 3:So we were really fortunate when we entered the sector. We came in through what would be one of the largest conglomerates in Life Sciences in Danahar.
Speaker 2:So we incrementally moved across the.
Speaker 3:Danahar platform over the course of our first decade in the sector, which gave us both enterprise exposure as well as global footprint, primarily across North America and Europe.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's cool. I had a friend, Charlotte Marshall, that worked there on the town and position side.
Speaker 3:Maybe it was A credible organization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great company Personified. What would you say Personified does? We'll just talk about that quickly.
Speaker 3:We were, we are, we're enterprise RPO provider, primarily in the Life Sciences, Health Care and Biotechnology sector. We gave what we would consider our clients unprecedented talent, access to some of the most labor-deplete sectors really in the world. When you think about nursing health care biostatisticians, there's a very there's a subset of very specific recruiting that can go off, that require you to have the talent network and access to really deliver, and so that was primarily where and how we built the business.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love it. I love it, john. What did you see when, obviously, you've been tracking for some of the five for a while, of course, like the truck, everything else. What did you see in them? And what did you see in Ryan?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Ryan and I had known each other five plus years and I was initially just intrigued by his desire and the company's desire to continually get better. It built a really fantastic business at scale without taking any outside capital, but just built it, bootstrapped it, and we had seen and heard their success, as Ryan alluded to, in the life sciences and biotech side, which we think is probably going to be, over the next 10 years, one of the fastest growing industries in the global economy. For all the reasons. On paper it made sense and then, when we got to know Ryan deeper and understand the culture behind the business, it became very exciting for us and we were all in about a year before we actually got the deal done.
Speaker 2:This was something we definitely wanted to have as part of our platform going forward.
Speaker 1:So with RPO to RPO you're filling a gap because obviously you've done some work in life sciences, I would assume over the years at one point probably got pulled into some gig or whatever. But this is a specialization, so I can see where again, on paper, this makes sense because there are experts, specialists of this. You both have been in the RPO world low enough to know that every RPO kind of does things a little differently, especially behind the veil, sometimes even like contracts and things like that. So how did you and you probably still work through some of this? But how do you reconcile, like something that for some like does really well that maybe Wilson doesn't do as well, or vice versa?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's always the hardest part about integration is you, when you're the choir, you typically spend most of your time looking at what the company you're acquiring is doing and what it does is. It opens up the time where you need to look internally as well at the things that we could be doing better. And what we found unique is there's ways that they deliver, especially in the life sciences and healthcare side, that are unique and drive results that were superior to what I've seen in the space. Part of the reason why Ryan was leading the whole thing and is now leading the healthcare and life sciences portion of our global business is to utilize that those expertise to drive further growth and value to our clients.
Speaker 1:Oh, ryan, what did you see in the acquisition? Growing a bootstrap company not easy. Done more than I care to admit, and it's nice. I've raised money and also had that pain as well. But what did you see in the acquisition?
Speaker 3:So I think there's a couple of things John mentioned that jump out at you right away.
Speaker 3:John and I had been in pretty close communication over the better part of the last five years, and so when you think about basic philosophies on business and the way you treat people, the way you treat your customers, I was already acutely aware of what Wilson HCG was going to look like, primarily as we all looked under the hood and some of those foundational items I think were critical in our decision to come together. But when I think about what Wilson brought to the table by way of global footprint in addition to they were quickly moving up as it related to the size and scope of where we saw them as an enterprise provider, and so it felt like a very logical next step to be able to make a significant amount of noise in this space, to team up with what I would consider to be the best delivery platform in the business, and giving our customers access to that platform was something that we thought would bring an immediate boost to all parties. We've been right about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've always been a big fan of Wilson HCG since I met John 100 years ago and I think it was in St Pete John but we had lunch but might have been in Tampa and he's seen because at the time RPO I think Terry, the right thing, we're selling it like her $2,500, $1,800 per hire, whatever the bit was and John's been at lunch was like I want to sell it as like a luxury service, so I want to go to the other side of the market and wrap team around it, wrap all kinds of vision around it and make sure to take care of the customers and charge more.
Speaker 1:And I just it was so different than everything that I had heard in the space and all the other RPOs that I had interacted with. I just fell in love with the idea and then he pulled it off. It's interesting now, ryan, that now you're working in a situation where A you already go before, but you in an even a more vulnerable situation, but you've got financial backing For those that are listening. When you're self-funded and bootstrapped, things can get interesting from time to time, depending on the how the market's going, but it's actually nice to have some backing. So what's that like for?
Speaker 3:you. I think it comes with a tremendous amount of responsibility. To be honest, we feel very fortunate to be a part of Wilson and 3i and I think that comes with a responsibility to deliver back at a high level. I don't know that I've ever woken up, at least post acquisition, feeling okay, we've now got the backing to, we can take that, I can relax. But I will tell you that the amount of risk that you can take with a group like Wilson involved is far different than when you're bootstrapped Right. I think the ability to expand and to rapidly expand, I think is something that came with this merger for us and we're really fortunate. There comes a threshold in RPO, when you're a standalone bootstrapped provider, that there is work that you would have to pass on Right. We no longer have that barrier to entry anymore. Oh my.
Speaker 1:God, that is super exciting, yeah, and both of y'all are competitive. So now, what I like about that is it seems, culturally, it seems like a really nice fit. John, I know that you spoke about it at the very beginning, that you've got to know each other, understand each other, worked out any type of chemistry stuff just through that time, team to team. Outside of the two of you, obviously, you'll both have pretty large teams. What is the kind of integration of the teams been like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that was something that really drew us. I'm sonified both, you know, and Ryan, we've been. I think there's a little executive service function of the business that really fit well into ours and fill the gap. The way that they were going to market from a sales perspective fit very well. So in a lot of ways, when I look back at the similarities of where personify was when we were that size, those similarities almost are scary. It takes a little bit to when infrastructure and the bigger business, those processes start coming play to make sure we're leaving room for the entrepreneurial spirit they got the business where it is and making sure that we can keep you on with the growth cycle that sonifies them up.
Speaker 1:Is there? How long is what? Did we officially close?
Speaker 2:I think it was official. Close was Ryan was the first week of February, or?
Speaker 3:January 5th Yep.
Speaker 1:So we're six months in. Ish, ryan, is there anything that you've been? I don't know, a shock, that's not the right word, but just surprise, as you kind of tool around and get to meet people, meet new customers and and Prospects and meet some of the more the Wilson people. Is there anything that's been surprising in a good way or bad way? Whatever, just he's a branch you.
Speaker 3:I think that the Differentials in tech stack at Wilson were was incredible. I had no idea the tools and Certainly the advent of Claro Was something that I was completely unaware of and the way that they leverage those tools into their delivery model. I don't know that I was surprised as much as I was impressed. I think that when you think about the caliber of people that are here, you really get a general sense, for we were always Wilson's, always been and well had been an adequate rabbit to chase in the market. But when you look under the hood, you quickly understand why Kim Pope is probably the best in the business as it relates to delivery and, as an operational leader, one of the very best I've ever run. I've run to and to see these Services delivered at scale like they do. I don't want to say I was surprised, but I was impressed.
Speaker 1:Like I said, it's to me, I think, john, oh, this is a hundred years ago now, but we were talking about ATS's and I think he said it, told me it's time either number one, number two, number three, like one of the larger icens Customers. I'm like what he goes? Yeah, we have a lot of icens license. Really, I was shocked because I just didn't know, because, you know, when you're not in an RPO Again for folks that are listening, you have no idea how the sausage is made. Just, you just don't know they're using their own technology, they're using their clients technology there, like all of that stuff. I'm glad you brought up the technology part because it's the Clareau edition. Acquisition was wonderful, it's just a great addition because you just got great analytic data and Michael's also a good person as well. John, what's what do you say about your tech stack? What's? Because, again, people don't know what goes on behind the veil.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is so true. Yeah, I think that Clareau everything we've done up to from a technology perspective, I think Clareau has the potential to make the biggest impact. It's something that we use every single day internally. Our clients are Estatic to have it, and the market procedure for very well. It was interesting, though, after we did the deal, we took a. We didn't sell Clareau for six to nine months. Folks done the user experience and Trying to build what we want Clareau to be in two to three years, and I believe it's going to be game-changing in the way that companies look at their data, they analyze it and they make decisions. When they're looking forward and I think even I've discussed in the past Most HR and talent data is always looking backwards and Getting the ability to start looking forward to making decisions, whether that be setting compensation vans or being able to set your headcount numbers for the year. The things that Clareau is able to produce is really remarkable and we're really excited to get that out as its own product Now and in the future.
Speaker 1:The London with both. Y'all want to ask you just the running of a services firm that also has a heck of a lot of technology. You might even call yourselves technology firms now, with a little bit of service. I'm not sure how you want to approach that, but what's it like? Because when you first started RPO or staffing firm or MSP its services, you're doing a whole lot of services and, yes, you're using technology to find people on to do all the other stuff, but it is mostly a services business. Now you wake up years later You've got all this technology behind the scenes, but all this technology that you're also investing in. How does that change kind of the way you look at running a services business? Because technology, at least historically, technology businesses and services business are run differently. The kind of the DNA is a little bit different, right, but right away you take first and then John, you're second.
Speaker 3:I think that there is no question that, as everyone looks at where the business is headed, non-tech enabled providers were probably going to become extinct over time. I think that's a fact. The level of sophistication and what's actually behind what's going on I think there can be a lot of smoke and mirrors and a lot of the providers in the way they're bundled, which was what made Wilson so exciting for us, because Clara is a product that they own. It's not one that's bundled within with additional services. For us, just evaluating where Wilson was in their technology life cycle and the fact that they had ownership over the products that they're delivering to me was a game changer.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:John, you take.
Speaker 2:William, I think one thing with the Clara acquisition and I made this clear to Michael and others internally as well as our board is that services businesses usually ruin tech businesses. So we've separated our tech function from the services side of the business for probably the last five or six years, and when we brought on Clara it was really important that we kept it as a technology company, and what happens is that it has to be a given take where services say this is what we need from technology but technology also can go to services and say, hey, we can do this now or we need to put this in, and so we try to have it much more as a given take and back and forth versus a board charted command and control.
Speaker 2:when you look at the difference between services, businesses and technology companies.
Speaker 1:Love it. What success for both of you else. Take on this and I'll give you a preface of kind of the way I've looked at acquisitions more on the technology side of things than services side is. I usually go about two, three years later after the acquisition and then look at the company that acquired their ability to keep talent, keep customers and keep revenue. If they can do those things then it's probably a pretty good acquisition.
Speaker 1:Look at like when SAP bought the success factors, they lost large inside of 18 months. That was horrible. And when success factors bought jobs to web, they lost their bird within a year. So it's okay for me. Those again both great companies. Just I didn't view this, the acquisition, as as fulfilled as it could have been, because it didn't keep the talent. And again, I don't know about the tech of the customers. But what's? What are you both because you both are looking through different lenses, but maybe at the same thing what are you all viewing success? What is success? What are you going to define success over the next coming months or years, et cetera? John, will she go first and Ryan, you can lead that up?
Speaker 2:Sure, I think as much as we've talked about technology on this, at the end of the day, it's still people, business Relationships, are what drives it. So I think your point is very valid. Looking back on that position we've done in the past and the focus on making sure we're retaining, engaging and challenging the leaders of those acquired companies, because when again, success factors example, they at least had a technology was the biggest piece of their business, and for us it's people and relationships, and so it's extremely critical to keep those. So success for us in two or three years is that we have one of the biggest life sciences portfolios in the industry. It's not the biggest and we're making our employees extremely happy, and that goes for the people sitting in Raleigh or the people in Tampa or the people in wherever in the world. I think we're on the right path.
Speaker 1:Well, Ryan, what about you? What's your view of success?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think what John mentioned is. It relates to fully integrating into the Wilson culture product portfolio suite of technology. That's table stakes and, I think, our ability to exponentially grow what is a very solid base of life. I think that's primarily from my seat today, where I would view success, but I can tell you that some of the things that were baked into this pre acquisition will make this a success and that's just the alignment between the two organizations that was already there Pre acquisition.
Speaker 1:I love it. Guys, I wish you all the success in the world. I just absolutely love John and Wilson ACG Ryan by connection, I now love you and I'll take it in your quarter If you ever need anything, and thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks for being well. Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and thanks for listening, until next time.
